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Gyno, Are Tren and Deca the culprits, look here to find out!

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Cannons

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Gyno, Are Tren and Deca the culprits, look here to find out!

Post by Cannons on Sat Dec 23, 2017 2:15 am

Since I had a bout with the leaky nipples, it prompted me to do a whole lot of research on the idea of progesterone induced gyno, because my attempts to attack it were failing so I had to drop the Tren Enanthate I was on. This guy Pheedno I'd like to find exactly where he hangs out cause every post that people have "copied and pasted" of his were good information and I've found to be true. Here it is....I will summarize a few other things after the article...

Post by Pheedno. Always a pleasure reading his posts...

I would like to cear up a few misconceptions about progesterone and gynecomastia.

Their is absolutely no steroid that aromatizes into progesterone. The reason for this is that progesteron does not have an aromatic A ring. So toss that myth out the window. Tren? Deca? Sorry but it just doesn't happen.

Now Tren A nd deca bind pretty well to the PR. They are progestins in their own right without undergoing any structural changes, but their affinity is MUCH weaker than progesterone itself. Even more so when nandrolone is reduced by 5-alpha reductase into DHN. Their is a small chance of progestogenic activity that could aid in manifesting a mass in the mammry IF estrogen is present in supraphysiological amounts, without proper ratio to Testosteronebut I have never see a documented case of progestogenic gynecomastia. The reason for this is that the PR has two isoforms. The PR-A and PR-B. PR-B mediates stimulatory effects of progestins; PR-A which is bound with progestins or anti-progestins inhibits PR-B, and PR-A is dominant,. The response to progesterone is determined by the relative expression of the two isoforms.

There is a direct relationship between the PR isoforms and steroid concentrations an this direct relationship suggests high progesterone concentrations, but this will induce the expression of PR-A, which represses transcription of PR-B, which in turn supresses PR function and progestin effect
With initial administration of nandrolone or it's dirivitives, I could see an expression of PR-B but a rapid rise in PR-A will ultimately supress the function of the PR. IMO, you would need a high ratio of the two before concerns, and this is a bit more of a possiblity with the begining of administration. In this time of vulnerability, rest assured in aromatase inhibitors as progesterone is an E2 agonist so the utilization of an AI will help. I personally don't think the concern is warranted though

Their are 4 combinations of hormones that cause gyno- Estrogen, Progesterone, Prolactin, and IGF. Nandrolone is a weak progestin, which agonizes the PRL, it also raises IGF. Progesterone induced gyno is not really of a concern given binding affinity to the PR and the mechanism of the two isoforms. The production of prolactin is a deffinate risk. Not only can it be an inductor for gyno along side estrogen, IGF, and pogesterone; this chance is increased as prolactn lowers testosterone. So you need to make sure to take proper precautions to not only keep estrogen in check, but prolactin as well.

Also, basically from what I've read on the matter, prolactin or progesterone will not cause gyno unless there is excess estrogen that has been aromatized in the body and already beginning the stages of gyno. It just adds on to the problem and brings with it lactation. Having said that, if you are on nonaromatizing compounds along with tren, you should not get gyno. If you are on winny(and anti-progestagenic) you will not get gyno. If you are on aromatizing compounds and you supplement with anti-e's and AI, you should not get gyno because your estrogen level will be in check therefore not causing excess estrogen for the progesterone to team up with. Its all starting to make a little more sense to me now. If any of you have any conflicting or additional information to this topic, please post it. I am in the process of adding the Tren E back in my cycle as soon as I feel comfortable that I have my gyno in check.


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Re: Gyno, Are Tren and Deca the culprits, look here to find out!

Post by Visions on Sat Dec 23, 2017 2:53 am

So Cannons,,, from what I understand,,, you basicly started lactating because Prolactin was able to build up because your estrogen levels weren't kept in check... so you just needed more anti E... Correct?

Thanks for the info... Im gearing up to add Tren E and all the info I can get helps...

Visions


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Re: Gyno, Are Tren and Deca the culprits, look here to find out!

Post by Cannons on Sat Dec 23, 2017 3:38 am

I can't be 100 percent sure on that but yes, prolactin and progesterone built up and combined with estrogen to cause the lactation and beginnings of gyno. Usually I can go without anti e in the beginning of the cycle, but it happened at week 3 or 4 right when the test and tren kicked in, and I was on dbol too, so there was probably alot of aromatization going on with nothing to stop it. After this week I am going to put the Tren E back in my cycle, I'm just making sure that my gyno is completely gone before I do.


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Re: Gyno, Are Tren and Deca the culprits, look here to find out!

Post by Cannons on Sat Dec 23, 2017 4:16 am

I can't be 100 percent sure on that but yes, prolactin and progesterone built up and combined with estrogen to cause the lactation and beginnings of gyno. Usually I can go without anti e in the beginning of the cycle, but it happened at week 3 or 4 right when the test and tren kicked in, and I was on dbol too, so there was probably alot of aromatization going on with nothing to stop it. After this week I am going to put the Tren E back in my cycle, I'm just making sure that my gyno is completely gone before I do.


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Re: Gyno, Are Tren and Deca the culprits, look here to find out!

Post by pincrusher on Sat Dec 23, 2017 5:14 am

thanks for doing the extra research for us and posting it here cannons. from what i gather i will make sure i start my anti-e's at the beginning of any cycle that has aromatizing steroids in it to be safe.
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Re: Gyno, Are Tren and Deca the culprits, look here to find out!

Post by Cannons on Sat Dec 23, 2017 6:02 am

Yeah, I never would have thought it to be that way. I always thought about progesterone and estrogen to be two different problems when really they are one in the same. From now on when I do tren, (which will be every cycle,LOL!) I'll be doing anti-e's and AI with it, cause I always use high mg of test with it. I'll probably use winny with it to most of the time to play it safe, plus I like its synergistic effects with the tren.


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Re: Gyno, Are Tren and Deca the culprits, look here to find out!

Post by iggy on Sat Dec 23, 2017 6:40 am

This is very helpful, I too was confused about the whole Progesterone thing.
I've done 4 fina cycles and no problems with gyno. The longest being
16 weeks. This article explains a why I never had problems with gyno while on tren. All my cycles always had test as a base with letrozole through out.

Gives me more confidence to dabble with Deca or NPP for my next cycle.


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Re: Gyno, Are Tren and Deca the culprits, look here to find out!

Post by Eating Machine on Sat Dec 23, 2017 7:25 am

Cannons, did you read the hgh post that England just put up in the general discussion area? In the side effects of hgh the author says that hgh increases progestins, more so in some than others. I have never heard anyone claim this before, and I have not experienced any increases in progestins in myself due to hgh use, but, I thought of you when I read it. Check it out!

EM
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Re: Gyno, Are Tren and Deca the culprits, look here to find out!

Post by scp on Sat Dec 23, 2017 8:21 am

Quick thread related question...

Does Anadrol cause progesterone-related gyno or estrogen-related gyno?

Which is more likely to cause gyno, dbol or anadrol?
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Re: Gyno, Are Tren and Deca the culprits, look here to find out!

Post by Cannons on Sat Dec 23, 2017 9:05 am

Eating Machine wrote:Cannons, did you read the hgh post that England just put up in the general discussion area? In the side effects of hgh the author says that hgh increases progestins, more so in some than others. I have never heard anyone claim this before, and I have not experienced any increases in progestins in myself due to hgh use, but, I thought of you when I read it. Check it out!

EM


Yeah bro, I seen that, I also read it somewhere else. Its the IGF that raises progestins. I figured for me I had it all on me at the same time if that was the case, I wasn't on any AI or anti-e, was on dbol, test, tren and HGH all at the same time. I guess they must have just all added up together. Interesting. I'm still getting puffy nips every now and then and I'm trying to figure out where exactly its coming from. I'm on 25mg Aromasin ed and just bumped up the Nolvadex to 40 again. I'll be getting some Femara soon, gonna try that out.


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