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slickg3

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Cycle Advice

Post by slickg3 on Sun May 08, 2016 1:38 am

I've been planning my first cycle for a while now and have some questions.

Weeks 1-10 Test Enanthate 500 mg
Weeks 1-4 D-bol 25mg
Weeks 1-10 Armidex .5 mg Every other day
Weeks 1-10 Fincar 1.25 mg Per day
and 320 mg Saw Palmetto

Week 11 clomid 100 mg and armidex .5 mg

Week 12 clomid 50 mg and armidex .5 mg


My questions are

1. How necessary is the fincar?
2. Will d-bol addition create a greater potential for side-effects and stretch marks?
3. Do the dosages in PCT look correct, is there anything I should add?
4. Is the timing of the PCT correct, immediately following the last week of the cycle?
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Re: Cycle Advice

Post by gustavo77 on Sun May 08, 2016 2:13 am

slickg3 wrote:I've been planning my first cycle for a while now and have some questions.

Weeks 1-10 Test Enanthate 500 mg
Weeks 1-4 D-bol 25mg
Weeks 1-10 Armidex .5 mg Every other day
Weeks 1-10 Fincar 1.25 mg Per day
and 320 mg Saw Palmetto

Week 11 clomid 100 mg and armidex .5 mg

Week 12 clomid 50 mg and armidex .5 mg


My questions are

1. How necessary is the fincar?
2. Will d-bol addition create a greater potential for side-effects and stretch marks?
3. Do the dosages in PCT look correct, is there anything I should add?
4. Is the timing of the PCT correct, immediately following the last week of the cycle?


Hey bro, would love to know your age, stats etc. In any case on first glance you need to change a couple of things here. Adex should be dosed @0.5mg ed minimum. Also clomid therapy (PCT) should start 14 days after your last shot of test E, not the following week. If you are prone to MPB then fincar may be needed. Test of course is highly androgenic and can cause hair loss. Stretch marks should be minimal while using adex, less aromatization=less water retention= less bloating of the skin and stretching of the fascia. For pct clomid and adex are fine, but increase the dosage of adex to 1mg/day for 4 weeks. Run the clomid for 3 weeks @100mg/day.


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slickg3

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Re: Cycle Advice

Post by slickg3 on Sun May 08, 2016 2:56 am

Sorry man I left out a critical part of the puzzle, I am 23 years old, 5'10", 190 lbs., and around 17% body fat. Thanks for the info. I have also been recommended to substitute a second generation serm like toremifene for the clomid....what do you think about such a recommendation? And also how do you feel about the d-bol addition for kickstart to my first cycle, good idea or leave it out?
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Re: Cycle Advice

Post by gustavo77 on Sun May 08, 2016 3:30 am

slickg3 wrote:Sorry man I left out a critical part of the puzzle, I am 23 years old, 5'10", 190 lbs., and around 17% body fat. Thanks for the info. I have also been recommended to substitute a second generation serm like toremifene for the clomid....what do you think about such a recommendation? And also how do you feel about the d-bol addition for kickstart to my first cycle, good idea or leave it out?

At the present there truly is not enough clinical data to support toremifene's effectiveness in pct. I am not saying that toremifene is ineffective in pct but I personally will wait for a little more research/personal experiences before I replace clomid with it. Clomid works for me and many others...

I see no reason to leave out the d-bol if you run the A.I., watch your sodium intake and drink lots of water (1 gallon minimum per day). Keep an eye on your blood pressure with d-bol though, some people like are sensitive to blood pressure spikes with d-bol. D-bol though is a great drug, it gives many people a sense of well being, not to mention excellent strength gains. Make sure you take in lots and lots of protein, d-bol is extremely anabolic and it will take full advantage of hefty amounts of protein. For your weight i think that you should consume between 275-300grams of protein per day, if you notice your gains slowing in the weeks to come bump up the protein to 325-350grams per day. Good luck and keep us posted.


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Re: Cycle Advice

Post by slickg3 on Sun May 08, 2016 4:20 am

First off Gustavo I want to thank you for your help....I have been reading on the website and I have some more questions.


So far I have decided to run
2 weeks prior to the cycle, Anabolic Innovations Cycle Support and then throughout
Weeks 1-4 D-bol at 25 mg every day
Weeks 1-10 Armidex .5 mg every other day


I have raised questions on...


1. The dosage of the enanthate...I noticed England recommended a dosage of 300 mg for a beginner....however I have been told 500 mg is the optimum range? (Let it be noted I don't want to explode over this cycle just make quality gains of 15-20 lbs. with minimal side effects and as safe as possible)

2, Reading the PCT threads I have begun to doubt the effectiveness of my PCT, should I run HCG with this cycle? How about aromasin, Coq10, and niacin?

3. Also in regards to my PCT you stated the Armidex and Clomid would be fine...is this suggesting that a normal Nolva: 40/40/20/20, clomid 100/100/50/50 could be replaced with armidex 1 mg/day and clomid 100 mg/day?

4. If so, why do you not suggest a tapering of the clomid?

5. I want to run a liver support will on the d-bol, recommendations?



I just want to make this a pleasant ride, ya know what I mean, if time permits along with my questions I would greatly appreciate a sample cycle based on your opinions, thanks again bud.
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Re: Cycle Advice

Post by Visions on Sun May 08, 2016 5:21 am

slickg3 wrote:First off Gustavo I want to thank you for your help....I have been reading on the website and I have some more questions.


So far I have decided to run
2 weeks prior to the cycle, Anabolic Innovations Cycle Support and then throughout What are these products and are they proven to work... if not save your money...
Weeks 1-4 D-bol at 25 mg every day I recommend 50mg Turanabol for 5-6weeks
Weeks 1-10 Armidex .5 mg every other day Always dose AI's every day... Do not skip days as this will make your levels Fluctuate causing more negative sides and will make it harder to control estrogen... Have enough Arimidex on hand to do 1 mg a day as this is the dose I think should be used. You can start off with less if you like but I recommend 1mg ed to keep estrogen in the normal range.


I have raised questions on...


1. The dosage of the enanthate...I noticed England recommended a dosage of 300 mg for a beginner....however I have been told 500 mg is the optimum range? (Let it be noted I don't want to explode over this cycle just make quality gains of 15-20 lbs. with minimal side effects and as safe as possible) I believe 500mg is a good starting dose since you arent using another oil... This first cycle will show how you respond to Test. For less negative sides I recommend using Turanaplex @ 50mg a day.

2, Reading the PCT threads I have begun to doubt the effectiveness of my PCT, should I run HCG with this cycle? How about aromasin, Coq10, and niacin? The best way to recover after a cycle is to never get shut down in the first place which means to use HCG. I prefer Aromasin over all AI's... Coenzyme Q10 and a non flush niacin can be used for BP but I'm not sure how effective they are so I believe a pharm BP med should be used if BP is a problem. I use a beta blocker called Bisoprolol HCTZ 10mg while on cycle...

3. Also in regards to my PCT you stated the Armidex and Clomid would be fine...is this suggesting that a normal Nolva: 40/40/20/20, clomid 100/100/50/50 could be replaced with armidex 1 mg/day and clomid 100 mg/day? Yes

4. If so, why do you not suggest a tapering of the clomid? 100mg a day is what's used in clinical studies

5. I want to run a liver support will on the d-bol, recommendations?



I just want to make this a pleasant ride, ya know what I mean, if time permits along with my questions I would greatly appreciate a sample cycle based on your opinions, thanks again bud.


Visions......


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gustavo77
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Re: Cycle Advice

Post by gustavo77 on Sun May 08, 2016 6:05 am

slickg3 wrote:First off Gustavo I want to thank you for your help....I have been reading on the website and I have some more questions.


5. I want to run a liver support will on the d-bol, recommendations?



I just want to make this a pleasant ride, ya know what I mean, if time permits along with my questions I would greatly appreciate a sample cycle based on your opinions, thanks again bud.

Since Visions gave you accurate, insightful info on your other questions, i'll just answer the last one...lol. I use milk thistle for liver support and it is cheap and effective. You can also look into Liv52, many people use this product with great success.


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Re: Cycle Advice

Post by slickg3 on Sun May 08, 2016 7:01 am

I think at this point most people are sold on the use of Nolvadex (Tamoxifen Citrate) instead of Clomid for PCT, since both compete estrogen at the receptor site, both increase serum test levels, and both drugs may also alter blood lipid profiles favorably (6). But since 20mgs of Tamoxifen is equal to 150mgs of clomid for purposes of testosterone elevation, FSH and LH, but Tamoxifen doesn’t decrease the LH response to LHRH (6) I think most people agree to Nolvadex’s superiority for PCT.

I’ve always been in favor of using Nolvadex during PCT, along with an AI, because reducing estrogen levels has been positively correlated with an increase in testosterone (7) so in my mind, it’s be beneficial to increase testosterone by as many mechanisms as possible while trying to recover your endogenous testosterone levels after a cycle. SO which AI do we use? Letro or A-dex? Well, why don’t we just keep using whichever one we used during the cycle, and add in some Nolvadex? Unfortunately, Nolvadex will significantly reduce the blood plasma levels of both Letrozole as well as Arimidex (Cool. So if we choose to use one of them with our Nolvadex on PCT, we’re throwing away a bit of money as the Nolvadex will be reducing their effectiveness.

This, of course, is where Aromasin comes in, at 20-25mgs/day.

Aromasin, at that dose, will raise your testosterone levels by about 60%, and also help out your free to bound testosterone ratio by lowering levels of Sex Hormone Binding Globulin (SHBG), by about 20% (12)…SHBG is that nasty enzyme that binds to testosterone and renders it useless for building muscle. But what about using it along with Nolvadex for PCT?

To understand why Aromasin may be useful in conjunction with Nolvadex while both Letro and A-dex suffer reduced effectiveness, we’ll need to first understand the differences between a Type-I and Type-II Aromatase Inhibitor. Type I inhibitors (like Aromasin) are actually steroidal compounds, while type II inhibitors (like Letro and A-dex) are non-steroidal drugs. Hence, androgenic side effects are very possible with Type-I AIs, and they should probably be avoided by women. Of course, there are some similarities between the two types of AIs…both type I & type II AIs mimic normal substrates (essentially androgens), allowing them to compete with the substrate for access to the binding site on the aromatase enzyme. After this binding, the next step is where things differ greatly for the two different types of AI’s. In the case of a type-I AI, the noncompetitive inhibitor will bind, and the enzyme initiates a sequence of hydroxylation; this hydroxylation produces an unbreakable covalent bond between the inhibitor and the enzyme protein. Now, enzyme activity is permanently blocked; even if all unattached inhibitor is removed. Aromatase enzyme activity can only be restored by new enzyme synthesis. Now, on the other hand, competitive inhibitors, called type II AI’s, reversibly bind to the active enzyme site, and one of two things can happen: 1.) either no enzyme activity is triggered or 2.) the enzyme is somehow triggered without effect. The type II inhibitor can now actually disassociate from the binding site, eventually allowing renewed competition between the inhibitor and the substrate for binding to the site. This means that the effectiveness of competitive aromatase inhibitors depends on the relative concentrations and affinities of both the inhibitor and the substrate, while this is not so for noncompetitive inhibitors. Aromasin is a type-I inhibitor, meaning that once it has done its job, and deactivated the aromatase enzyme, we don’t need it anymore. Letrozole and Arimidex actually need to remain present to continue their effects. This is possibly why Nolvadex does not alter the pharmacokinetics of Aromasin (11).

Before we close the book on Aromasin, it’s worth noting that you can (and should) still use one of the non-steroidal AIs during your cycle to reduce estrogen, if necessary. When you are ready for PCT, you can then switch over to Aromasin and still experience the full effects of an AI, since there is no cross-over tolerance experienced between steroidal and non-steroidal AIs (9). Since Aromasin is about 65% efficient at suppressing estrogen (10), it’s certainly a very powerful agent, especially considering you won’t experience reduced effectiveness because of your concurrent use of Nolvadex or from any sort of tolerance developed by using other AIs on your cycle(9). There is also a decent amount of preclinical data suggesting that Aromasin has a beneficial effect on bone mineral metabolism that is not seen with non-steroidal agents, and it may also have beneficial effects on lipid metabolism that are not found in the non-steroidal Letro and A-dex (9).

Finally, as we’re going to be using Nolvadex for PCT anyway, and we ought to be using an AI with it for maximum recovery…I think Aromasin- considering it’s compatibility with Nolvadex and beneficial effects on bone mineral content and lipid profile, has finally stopped being the black sheep of AIs and found a home in our Cycles.
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slickg3

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Re: Cycle Advice

Post by slickg3 on Sun May 08, 2016 8:00 am

1. What about finasteride?

2. After reading this article, would you agree that aromasin and nolvadex rather than clomid would be a better combo for pct, why?

3. You recommended Turanaplex at 50 mg, how long for a kickstart (weeks 1-4?), and should I start out at a lower dose?

I'm going to research HCG a little more, but I'm sure I may have some more questions about it....
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Re: Cycle Advice

Post by gustavo77 on Sun May 08, 2016 8:53 am

slickg3 wrote:I think at this point most people are sold on the use of Nolvadex (Tamoxifen Citrate) instead of Clomid for PCT, since both compete estrogen at the receptor site, both increase serum test levels, and both drugs may also alter blood lipid profiles favorably (6). But since 20mgs of Tamoxifen is equal to 150mgs of clomid for purposes of testosterone elevation, FSH and LH, but Tamoxifen doesn’t decrease the LH response to LHRH (6) I think most people agree to Nolvadex’s superiority for PCT.

This is Anthony Robert's pct recommendation right?? Although there is some good info in that article, mainly regarding aromasin use in pct, in his first paragraph quoted here he states that Tamoxifen (Nolva) elevates testosterone, FSH, and LH. There is no real clinical data to support this. There is in fact clinical data to support the opposite, that nolva does not increase T, FSH or LH and also that nolva decreases IGF-1 and GH. Clomid has been shown in clinical studies to increase FSH and LH.


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Re: Cycle Advice

Post by gustavo77 on Sun May 08, 2016 10:26 am

slickg3 wrote:1. What about finasteride?

2. After reading this article, would you agree that aromasin and nolvadex rather than clomid would be a better combo for pct, why?

3.  You recommended Turanaplex at 50 mg, how long for a kickstart (weeks 1-4?), and should I start out at a lower dose?

I'm going to research HCG a little more, but I'm sure I may have some more questions about it....          

1.  I will let visions answer this one, if he will be so kind as he has much more knowledge on this than I.

2.  No i do not agree that nolva is better than clomid, not only because of the clinical data but from experience.  When i used nolva for pct, it did not do anything for my recovery.

3.  Kick start would be 4-6 weeks long.  I think 5 is sufficient.  No need to start at a lower dose, run it @50mg/day for the whole 5 weeks.  Here is what you need to read for HCG and PCT:

http://forum.roids.biz/t174-hcg-pct-recommendations


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Re: Cycle Advice

Post by Visions on Sun May 08, 2016 10:59 am

slickg3 wrote:I think at this point most people are sold on the use of Nolvadex (Tamoxifen Citrate) instead of Clomid for PCT, since both compete estrogen at the receptor site, both increase serum test levels, and both drugs may also alter blood lipid profiles favorably (6). But since 20mgs of Tamoxifen is equal to 150mgs of clomid for purposes of testosterone elevation, FSH and LH, but Tamoxifen doesn’t decrease the LH response to LHRH (6) I think most people agree to Nolvadex’s superiority for PCT.

I’ve always been in favor of using Nolvadex during PCT, along with an AI, because reducing estrogen levels has been positively correlated with an increase in testosterone (7) so in my mind, it’s be beneficial to increase testosterone by as many mechanisms as possible while trying to recover your endogenous testosterone levels after a cycle. SO which AI do we use? Letro or A-dex? Well, why don’t we just keep using whichever one we used during the cycle, and add in some Nolvadex? Unfortunately, Nolvadex will significantly reduce the blood plasma levels of both Letrozole as well as Arimidex (Cool. So if we choose to use one of them with our Nolvadex on PCT, we’re throwing away a bit of money as the Nolvadex will be reducing their effectiveness.

This, of course, is where Aromasin comes in, at 20-25mgs/day.

Aromasin, at that dose, will raise your testosterone levels by about 60%, and also help out your free to bound testosterone ratio by lowering levels of Sex Hormone Binding Globulin (SHBG), by about 20% (12)…SHBG is that nasty enzyme that binds to testosterone and renders it useless for building muscle. But what about using it along with Nolvadex for PCT?

To understand why Aromasin may be useful in conjunction with Nolvadex while both Letro and A-dex suffer reduced effectiveness, we’ll need to first understand the differences between a Type-I and Type-II Aromatase Inhibitor. Type I inhibitors (like Aromasin) are actually steroidal compounds, while type II inhibitors (like Letro and A-dex) are non-steroidal drugs. Hence, androgenic side effects are very possible with Type-I AIs, and they should probably be avoided by women. Of course, there are some similarities between the two types of AIs…both type I & type II AIs mimic normal substrates (essentially androgens), allowing them to compete with the substrate for access to the binding site on the aromatase enzyme. After this binding, the next step is where things differ greatly for the two different types of AI’s. In the case of a type-I AI, the noncompetitive inhibitor will bind, and the enzyme initiates a sequence of hydroxylation; this hydroxylation produces an unbreakable covalent bond between the inhibitor and the enzyme protein. Now, enzyme activity is permanently blocked; even if all unattached inhibitor is removed. Aromatase enzyme activity can only be restored by new enzyme synthesis. Now, on the other hand, competitive inhibitors, called type II AI’s, reversibly bind to the active enzyme site, and one of two things can happen: 1.) either no enzyme activity is triggered or 2.) the enzyme is somehow triggered without effect. The type II inhibitor can now actually disassociate from the binding site, eventually allowing renewed competition between the inhibitor and the substrate for binding to the site. This means that the effectiveness of competitive aromatase inhibitors depends on the relative concentrations and affinities of both the inhibitor and the substrate, while this is not so for noncompetitive inhibitors. Aromasin is a type-I inhibitor, meaning that once it has done its job, and deactivated the aromatase enzyme, we don’t need it anymore. Letrozole and Arimidex actually need to remain present to continue their effects. This is possibly why Nolvadex does not alter the pharmacokinetics of Aromasin (11).

Before we close the book on Aromasin, it’s worth noting that you can (and should) still use one of the non-steroidal AIs during your cycle to reduce estrogen, if necessary. When you are ready for PCT, you can then switch over to Aromasin and still experience the full effects of an AI, since there is no cross-over tolerance experienced between steroidal and non-steroidal AIs (9). Since Aromasin is about 65% efficient at suppressing estrogen (10), it’s certainly a very powerful agent, especially considering you won’t experience reduced effectiveness because of your concurrent use of Nolvadex or from any sort of tolerance developed by using other AIs on your cycle(9). There is also a decent amount of preclinical data suggesting that Aromasin has a beneficial effect on bone mineral metabolism that is not seen with non-steroidal agents, and it may also have beneficial effects on lipid metabolism that are not found in the non-steroidal Letro and A-dex (9).

Finally, as we’re going to be using Nolvadex for PCT anyway, and we ought to be using an AI with it for maximum recovery…I think Aromasin- considering it’s compatibility with Nolvadex and beneficial effects on bone mineral content and lipid profile, has finally stopped being the black sheep of AIs and found a home in our Cycles.


Where are you getting this misinformation? You find the study that says Nolva increases test production and give me the link cause I have searched and searched for it and can't find one study saying it increases test production, yet I can find many studies that say the opposite... Please only give me a link to a clinical study, not someone's website... If this is Anthony Roberts shit, then do a search here on this site and look where I ripped his info apart. He's full of misinformation and real info which makes him dangerous... Just like the statement above where it says SHBG is an enzyme,,, when its actually a protien


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slickg3

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Re: Cycle Advice

Post by slickg3 on Sun May 08, 2016 11:54 am

Visions and gustavo thanks for your guidance and help....I will continue my research and keep you updated
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slickg3

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Re: Cycle Advice

Post by slickg3 on Sun May 08, 2016 12:30 pm

I've noticed a lot of people stating clomid causes emotions to run rampid and severe acne....what can I do about this?

Are there any side effects like this associated with HCG?

I've been told a 300 mg kickstart of clomid the first day of pct is an excellent way to flush the system, is this true?
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Re: Cycle Advice

Post by slickg3 on Sun May 08, 2016 1:15 pm

Not trying to argue with you vision just want to post this article...

It seems like everyday questions concerning PCT pop up, and weather one should
use either Clomid or nolva or a combo of both. I hope that this article written
by BigCat may help to clear up some misconceptions.





While practically similar compounds in structure, few people ever really consider
Clomid and nolva to be similar. Its not just a common myth in steroid circles,
but even in the medical community. This misconception originates from their
completely different uses. Nolvadex is most commonly used for the treatment
of breast cancer in women, while Clomid is generally considered a fertility
aid. In bodybuilding circles, from day one, Clomid has generally been used as
post-cycle therapy and Nolvadex as an anti-estrogen.



But as I intend to demonstrate this is in essence the same. I believe the myth
to have originated because nolva is clearly a more powerful anti-estrogen, and
the people selling Clomid needed another angle to sell the stuff, so it was
mostly used as a post-cycle aid. But few users really understand how Clomid
(and also Nolvadex, logically) works to bring back natural testosterone in the
body after the conclusion of a cycle of androgenic anabolic steroids. After
a cycle is over, the level of androgens in the body drop drastically. The body
compensates with an overproduction of estrogen to keep steroid levels up. Estrogen
as well inhibits the production of natural testosterone, and in the period between
the return of natural testosterone and the end of a cycle, a lot of mass is
lost. So its in everybody's best interest to bring back natural test as soon
as humanly possible. Clomid and Nolvadex will reduce the post-cycle estrogen,
so that a steroid deficiency is constated and the hypothalamus is stimulated
to regenerate natural testosterone production in the body. That's basically
how the mechanism works, nothing more, nothing less.



Both compounds are structurally alike, classified as triphenylethylenes. Nolvadex
is clearly the stronger component of the two as it can achieve better results
in decreasing overall estrogen with 20-40 mg a day, than Clomid can in doses
of 100-150 mg a day. A noteworthy difference. Triphenylethylenes are very mild
estrogens that do not exert a lot, if any activity at the estrogen receptor,
but are still highly attracted to it. As such they will occupy the receptor
and keep it from binding estrogens. This means they do not actively work to
reduce estrogen in the body like Proviron, Viratase or arimidex would (by competing
for the aromatase enzyme), but that it blocks the receptor so that any estrogen
in the body is basically inert, because it has no receptor to bind to.



This has advantages and disadvantages. The disadvantage is that when use is
discontinued, the estrogen level is still the same and new problems will develop
much sooner. The advantage is that it works much faster and has results sooner
than with an aromatase blocker like Proviron or arimidex. Therefor, when problems
such as gynocomastia occur during a cycle of steroids one will usually start
20 mg/day of nolva or 100 mg/day of Clomid straight away, in conjunction with
some Proviron or arimidex. The proviron or arimidex will actively reduce estrogen
while the Clomid or Nolvadex will solve your ongoing problem straight away.
This way, when use is discontinued there is no immediate rebound.



So which one should you use? Well personally, I'd have to say Nolvadex. Both
as an on-cycle anti-estrogen and a post-cycle therapy. As an anti-estrogen its
simply much stronger, demonstrated by the fact that better results are obtained
with 20-40 mg than with 100-150 mg of Clomid. For post-cycle, this plays a key
role as well. It deactivates rebound estrogen much faster and more effective.
But most importantly, Nolvadex has a direct influence on bringing back natural
testosterone, where as Clomid may actually have a slight negative influence.
The reason being that tamoxifen (as in Nolvadex) seems to increase the responsiveness
of LH (luteinizing hormone) to GnRH (gonadtropin releasing hormone), whereas
Clomid seems to decrease the responsiveness a bit1.



Another noteworthy fact about Nolvadex is that it acts more potently as an
estrogen in the liver. As you remember, I mentioned that clomiphene and tamoxifen
are basically weak estrogens. Well, tamoxifen is apparently still quite potent
in the liver. This offers us the positive benefits of this hormone in the liver,
while avoiding its negative effects elsewhere in the body. As such Nolvadex
can have a very positive impact on negative cholesterol levels2 in the body,
and therefore too should be considered a better choice than Clomid. It will
not solve the problem of bad cholesterol levels during Steroid use, but will
help to contain the problem to a larger degree.



Another reason why I promote the use of Nolvadex over Clomid post-cycle (as
if being 3-4 times stronger and having more of a direct effect on restoring
natural test wasn't enough) is because it's a lot safer. Not just because it
improves lipid profiles, but also because it simply doesn't have the intrinsic
side-effects that Clomid has. Clomid causes more acne for sure, but that's mainly
because you need to use a 3-4 times higher dose. But Clomid seems to also affect
the eyesight. Long-term Clomid therapy causes irreversible changes in eyesight3
in users. Irreversible. For me that alone is reason enough to prefer Nolvadex.



Lastly, one should be aware that use of these compounds can reduce the gains
made on steroids. Nolvadex more so than Clomid, simply because it is stronger.
Estrogen is responsible for a number of anabolic factors such as increasing
growth hormone output, upgrading the androgen receptor and improving glucose
utilization. This is why aromatizing steroids like testosterone are still best
suited for maximum muscle gain. When reducing the estrogen levels, we therefore
reduce the potential gains being made. For this reason one may opt to try Clomid
during a cycle instead of Nolvadex. Although I would imagine that the problem
that needed solved would be of more concern, in which case nolva remains the
weapon of choice. It's a plain fact that there is a high correlation between
gains and side-effects. Either you go for maximum gains and tolerate the side-effects,
or you reduce the side-effects, and with it the gains. That's life, nothing
is free.



Stacking and Use:



If problems of Gynocomastia or other estrogen related symptoms tend to pop
up during a cycle the use of 20-30 mg of Nolvadex or 100 mg of Clomid daily
should easily contain the problem, and be used until a few days after the problem
subsides. For best results and the least amount of problems upon cessation it
is best stacked with Proviron (50 mg) or arimidex (0.5 mg) for this duration
as well. Its not advised that these products be ran concomitantly with the steroid
for the entire duration of the stack, as this will reduce your gains. Instead
cease the usage of anti-estrogens once the problem is contained, and should
the problem resurface, simply recommence the use of the products in the same
manner as described above.



Once a cycle of steroids is concluded one should always initiate a post-cycle
therapy to help bring back natural testosterone as soon as possible. This will
help you to retain the mass you gained. How this is done depends highly on the
type of steroid used. If only orals were used, therapy should start immediately,
even the last day of the stack. If short-acting esters or water-based injectables
were used, therapy should commence within 4-7 days after last injection, and
if long-acting esters were used then it should commence 1.5 to 2 weeks after
the last injection was given. The length of the therapy will vary as well, from
3-5 weeks. The longer acting the product was, the longer therapy should be continued
to make sure all suppressive factors are cleared before use of Clomid/Nolvadex
is discontinued.



For best results, it is best stacked with HCG (Human Chorionic gonadotrophin),
which functions as an LH analog and can help bring testicle size back up. HCG
use starts the last week of a cycle, and on from there every 5-6 days (usually
1500-3000 IU) and discontinued 1.5 to weeks prior to the cessation of Nolvadex/clomid.
The reason being that HCG itself is also suppressive of natural testosterone
and should be out of the body before therapy is over, or it will inhibit natural
testicle function. But I can not stress enough that HCG possibly plays a more
important role in post-cycle therapy than clomid/Nolvadex. For Clomid and Nolvadex,
doses are usually tapered down. Its best to start with 40-50 mg of Nolvadex
or 150 mg of Clomid for the first week or the first two weeks, and then finish
the program with 20-25 mg of Nolvadex or 100 mg of Clomid for an additional
two weeks.



References



1 Vermeulen A., Comhaire F., Hormonal effects of an anti-estrogen, tamoxifen,
in normal and oligospermic men, Fertil. Ster. 29 (1978) 320-27



2 Bruning PF, Bronfer JMG, Hart AAM, Jong-Bakker M, tamoxifen, serum lipoproteins
and cardiovascular risk, Br. J. Cancer 1988 Oct, 58 (4) 497-9
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slickg3

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Re: Cycle Advice

Post by slickg3 on Sun May 08, 2016 1:48 pm

Was a question asked by someone at EF... although Huck beat me to the punch by saying, and I quote "Nolvadex is definitely more potent at binding mammary estrogen receptors.I would choose it over clomid any day as an anti-E." --- I have posted this question here and put it up for people to read here.



I'd probably just stick with Nolvadex... it has about zero side effects... and with Clomid, you get the emotional sides or acne...

I mean... it has been claimed that Clomid "stimulates" production of LH and therefore of testosterone, HOWEVER Clomid's activity is achieved not by stimulation of the hypothalamus and pituitary, but by blocking their inhibition by estrogen... following this train... Nolvadex would also accomplish this goal by competitively binding to target estrogen sites, thereby allowing the hypothalamus and pituitary to re-activate.

There is alot of discussion of clomid being a sucessful antagonist in the hypothalamus and in breast tissue, where as it is effective agonist in bone tissue and also improves blood cholesterol. I don't think for bodybuilders, that any of the other effects (i.ie., reducing the damage of muscle tissue that results from muscular training)... as it is more greatly help endurance athletes...

I mean... if you are dead set on taking Clomid... I guess it can't hurt. I think that Nolva is a much better selection... as it will bind to the estrogen receptors, and not give you any of the ill-effects that clomid will... at the same time, your hypo and pitu will kick back on.
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slickg3

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Re: Cycle Advice

Post by slickg3 on Sun May 08, 2016 2:29 pm

When used on a cycle sparingly, HCG helps to maintain testicular size and condition but it is speculated that the intermittent administration of HCG will keep the testicles receptive to LH, when we eventually go off a cycle. This may be due to HCG’s ability to maintain of a higher level of Inter-Testicular-Testosterone (ITT), when used during a cycle. This could aid and quicken your recovery of the hypothalamic-testicular-pituitary-axis. This is certainly possible. When used after a cycle, it will still help in restoring your testicles back to their original size, and provide stimulation for the Leydig cells. Both methods have merit, and there’s no reason why you can’t use HCG every third week at a one time dose (perhaps) 500iu or so, and then use it at that same dose for a daily schedule at the outset of your Post Cycle Therapy.
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slickg3

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Re: Cycle Advice

Post by slickg3 on Sun May 08, 2016 3:28 pm

Doses of HCG
Smaller doses, more frequently during a cycle will give best overall results with least unwanted side effects. Somewhere between 500IU and 1000IU per day would be best over about a two-week period. These doses are sufficient to avoid/rectify testicular atrophy without increasing oestrogen levels too dramatically and risking gynecomastia. This dosing schedule also avoids the risk of permanently down-regulating the LH receptors in the testes.

It is important for the HCG administration to have been completed with 6 or 7 clear days before the onset of PCT in order to avoid inhibition of the Nolvadex and/or Clomid therapy. Also, a small daily dose (10-20mg) of Nolvadex would normally be used in conjunction with HCG in order to prevent oestrogenic symptoms caused by sudden increases in aromatisation.

Presentation and Administration of HCG
Synthetic HCG is often known as Pregnyl (generic name) and is available in 2500iu and 5000iu (not ideal for the above doses!). Administration of the compound is either by intra-muscular or subcutaneous injection. It comes as a powder which needs to be mixed with the sterile water. The powder is temperature-sensitive prior to mixing and should not be exposed to direct heat. After mixing, it should be kept refrigerated and used within a few weeks - though there are sterility issues which need to be considered after mixing.

Summary and Presentation of Clomid and HCG
Clomid and/or Nolvadex are more effective than HCG post cycle, but some long-term users like to use HCG during a cycle, or to prepare the testes for Clomid and/or Nolvadex therapy.

Clomid is available in 50mg tablets most commonly, but also comes in 25mg capsule, often in boxes of 24 tablets. Tamoxifen is made by a number of manufacturers and comes in 10mg or 20mg tablets, most commonly 30 x 20mg tablets. HCG generally comes in kits of three ampoules of powder needing to be mixed with the provided injectable water as 1500IU, 2500IU or 5000IU per ampoule kits.
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gustavo77
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Re: Cycle Advice

Post by gustavo77 on Sun May 08, 2016 4:04 pm

Hey bro, thanks for posting all that, as some of it contained some valuable info.  However, with regards to the nolva/clomid debate once again this is all people's opinions as no real clinical evidence was shown to support the theory that nolva increases LH or test.   Here is what i mean by clinical data:


'Clomiphene Citrate Effects on Testosterone/Estrogen Ratio in Male Hypogonadism
J Sex Med 2005;2:716–721.

ABSTRACT

Aim. Symptomatic late-onset hypogonadism is associated not only with a decline in serum testosterone, but also with a rise in serum estradiol. These endocrine changes negatively affect libido, sexual function, mood, behavior, lean body mass, and bone density. Currently, the most common treatment is exogenous testostosterone therapy. This treatment can be associated with skin irritation, gynecomastia, nipple tenderness, testicular atrophy, and decline in sperm counts. In this study we investigated the efficacy of clomiphene citrate in the treatment of hypogonadism with the objectives of raising endogenous serum testosterone (T) and improving the testosterone/estrogen (T/E) ratio.

Methods. Our cohort consisted of 36 Caucasian men with hypogonadism defined as serum testosterone level less than 300 ng/dL. Each patient was treated with a daily dose of 25 mg clomiphene citrate and followed prospectively. Analysis of baseline and follow-up serum levels of testosterone and estradiol levels were performed.

Results. The mean age was 39 years, and the mean pretreatment testosterone and estrogen levels were 247.6 ± 39.8 ng/dL and 32.3 ± 10.9, respectively. By the first follow-up visit (4–6 weeks), the mean testosterone level rose to 610.0 ± 178.6 ng/dL (P < 0.00001). Moreover, the T/E ratio improved from 8.7 to 14.2 (P < 0.001). There were no side effects reported by the patients.

Conclusions. Low dose clomiphene citrate is effective in elevating serum testosterone levels and improving the testosterone/estadiol ratio in men with hypogonadism. This therapy represents an alternative to testosterone therapy by stimulating the endogenous androgen production pathway."

And one on Nolva:

Estrogen receptor blockade with tamoxifen diminishes growth hormone secretion in boys: evidence for a stimulatory role of endogenous estrogens during male adolescence -- Metzger and Kerrigan 79 (2): 513 -- Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metaboli

Note that nolva lowers gh and igf and also no change in free and total testosterone was found with nolva supplementation.


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slickg3

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Re: Cycle Advice

Post by slickg3 on Mon May 09, 2016 1:48 am

There definitely is a big disagreement on which works better, and thanks for your rebuttal to those articles......can you refer to my questions in the previouw post too.....


I've noticed a lot of people stating clomid causes emotions to run rampid and severe acne....what can I do about this, does nolva seem to do this too?

Are there any side effects associated with HCG?

I've been told a 300 mg kickstart of clomid the first day of pct is an excellent way to flush the system, is this true?
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gustavo77
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Re: Cycle Advice

Post by gustavo77 on Mon May 09, 2016 2:03 am

slickg3 wrote:There definitely is a big disagreement on which works better, and thanks for your rebuttal to those articles......can you refer to my questions in the previouw post too.....


I've noticed a lot of people stating clomid causes emotions to run rampid and severe acne....what can I do about this, does nolva seem to do this too?

Are there any side effects associated with HCG?

I've been told a 300 mg kickstart of clomid the first day of pct is an excellent way to flush the system, is this true?

1. Clomid can make some people feel a little emotional but that is small price to pay for what it does for pct/recovery.

2. Other than a slight spike in estrogen after administration i am not aware of any other side effects related to HCG use.

3. This is the reason clomid gets a bad rap..too many people using outrages dosage of the drug. There is absolutely no need to run clomid @300mg even if it is only for one day. Case in point, look at the study i posted on clomid, the dose used in the study was 25mg of clomid. That was enough of dose to increase test production in those men. Clomid @100mg/day is a generous dose and is the highest dose that i would ever recommend.


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Big D

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Re: Cycle Advice

Post by Big D on Mon May 09, 2016 2:54 am

The big Cat article is about a really old debate. I would say that it is outdated at this time. The study's cited are from 1978 and 1988. Gustavo posted some very good information that is much more up to date. (Mar. 2005) Even medical books that I've read have what looks to me like very obvious errors in the fact that there are implied assumptions that are not based on facts. This makes it necasary to have some good skills in critical thinking, as evidenced by the fact that old medical beleifs change from time to time. I also want to point out that some anti-e's do not cross the blood brain barrier, so this is a consideration for keeping the HPTA online. This is where these debates generally come from becuase most of these anti-e's effect one and not the other and if you take two kinds, how they interact. With all this being considered, it looks like aromasin and hcg during cylce and pct is the most effective and safest choice. Aromasin hits estrogen from both angles which clearly makes it a superior choice. As for the nolva vs. clomid, I think Visions and Gustavo have given the best advise and the reasons why clomid is best. And the clinicl study posted actually shows that 25mg/ed is enough to resolve hypogonadism, which wouldn't be a problem if your using hcg 500iu-2X/wk.
If you take clomid in too high a dose, that's what causes worse sides, which is one more good reason to keep endogenous test online during cycle so you don't need to resort to anything extreme post cycle. IMO I think that the effectiveness of clomid is very under rated, and there is a lack of evidence for Nolva to do what clomid does. Those articles from Anthony Roberts and Big Cat just seem to be making things more difficult and confusing than they are.
After reading this thread I wouldn't even use 100mg/ed for pct. And from personal experience I know that the tapering schedule from 150mg-day 1, 100mg-day2-14, 50mg-day 14-21, is enough to send your test level skyrocketing above normal for the next three months. I will never do that again. It was definately not good advise to do that. My bro's at forum.roids.biz have been right on with their advise here and I'll never  trust those other sites again.
Hope this helps clear things up a bit. Welcome to forum.roids.biz.
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slickg3

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Re: Cycle Advice

Post by slickg3 on Mon May 09, 2016 3:26 am

thanks big d for your input....i love to get opinons from all sides
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El Mucho

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Re: Cycle Advice

Post by El Mucho on Mon May 09, 2016 4:19 am

Weeks 1-5: 40-50mg Tbol (ed)
Weeks 1-10: 400mg Test Cyp (200mg twice a week)
Weeks 1-12: 1000iu HCG (500iu same days as Test injects)
Weeks 1-12: .5mg Adex (ed)

PCT:
Weeks 13-16 (3 Weeks): 100mg Clomid or 40mg Nolvadex (ed)
Weeks 13-19 (6 Weeks): 25mg Aromasin/Exemastane (ed)


*Just keep it simple. As far as the Clomid and Nolvadex debate goes, I think that both of them have their benefits. Nolvadex has been shown to have the ability to decrease the levels of IGF-1 in the body. IGF-1 is extremely important for building and especially maintaining the muscle that you gain from a cycle. Nolvadex does increase Testosterone more, but indirectly because it does block more estrogen than Clomid does. Nolvadex blocks estrogen at both the hypothalamus and the receptor sites while Clomid primarily only blocks the receptors. Nolvadex's effect on the hypothalamus is more than likely the cause for decreasing IGF-1 in the body.

However, if you are only using the Nolvadex or Clomid for PCT only, and not during the cycle, then I don't think there's going to be much of a difference in the results. It's true that you should want to keep IGF-1 levels high while doing PCT, but using Nolva for three or four weeks shouldn't have that much of an impact on your gains. I think you should just pick whichever one is the cheapest and easiest to get. As far as Clomid making you moody or giving you zits, it might effect your mood a little, but it isn't even that noticeable. Most of the side effects come from taking any of these drugs for extended amounts of time.
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El Mucho

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Re: Cycle Advice

Post by El Mucho on Mon May 09, 2016 4:57 am

Oh yeah, the super secret hidden hair keeping secret is this.
-buy a bottle of generic Minoxodil at Wal-Mart or Target or wherever, then add three ml of Finasteride mix, and three ml of the Spironolactone mix to the bottle of Minoxodil. Then just use it like it says on the bottle. Also, use a dab of Nizoral shampoo (not Nioxin) whenever you shower.

Here's where to get everything you need. You can buy the Minoxodil and non-prescription Nizoral at a store though.

WholeSale Hair Products, inc*

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Re: Cycle Advice

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